Just an example of the kinds of ominous messages we’ve been getting hit with since I posted photos of Jungkook at Matsuhisa (a celebrity hotspot) in LA yesterday. What will crumble me? How will I crumble? Also, they’re spamming Jacek with subscriptions to Scientology, LOLOLOLOL. His inbox is basically all Xenu.
Some BTS fans are accusing us of contributing to stalking culture with that post. Our position is that, well, he’s one of the biggest popstars on the planet, he had dinner at a place where paps post up in the parking lot, and we would do and have done the same for his peers – Justin Bieber, Lil Nas X, Adele, etc etc etc. And I took the opportunity in that post to talk about Korean entertainment culture and how it can be restrictive to idols.
Anyway, not all the messages have been threatening. A few have politely asked us to take down the images. What do you think?
(Also, quick admin note from Jacek - if you tried to sign up for a paid subscription starting sometime last night, please check his chat post for updates).
Let me just add that it's not just Scientology. I'm now a subscriber to about 30 local NBC channels, about that many more local CBS and FOX channels, Healthline, and a host of other useful subscriptions. And they keep coming in! Fun!
Jacek isn't going to like this... because I really, really, really want to write about K and C-dramas. I watch SO MANY OF THEM. At this point I think I spend more time on Viki than on any other streaming service.
OMG, Lainey, I am having a fangirl meltdown right now - you liked and replied to my comment! I am looking forward to more Asian content (I am sure Jacek is going to support you :) )! I have an iQIYI subscription but now I have to consider a Viki subscription, as well (MY husband may not like this :) ).
ARMY here. Appreciate your post on JK + anything to do with East Asian pop culture and your thoughtful analysis. The hate from fandoms is beyond rational and I just feel bad that you guys have to deal with it. The way I see it, JK is a seasoned public figure. He was with a massive entourage, any of whom could have advised him otherwise. He chose to have a smoke outside within public view. One could argue this was almost intentional, or he just didn't give a hoot either way. Again, that should not translate to you guys getting hate. Grateful for your excellent work always!
Dear Lainey, I appreciate everything you write about East Asian artists and the East Asian entertainment industry (I actually once begged you via e-mail to have an Asian gossip section on LaineyGossip :) ). I discovered K-drama through LaineyGossip and K-drama brought me to C-drama and so on. I am relatively new to East Asian pop culture - it was only in 2020 that I watched my first K-drama - but have been obsessed with it since. But I find it pretty difficult to find deeper analysis of the East Asian entertainment culture and am hoping that The Squawk will be a place to get more insight. I am very happy that your post opened a space for comments like Hui‘s who has been experiencing Asian fan culture for many years and could share her opinions with us. There is so much I want to know. Chinese celebrities seem to navigate in a power triangle between powerful fandoms, state restrictions and threats from people within the entertainment industry - I want to learn more about it! In Thai-dramas things are possible that seem impossible in other countries‘ dramas, but how does it affect Thai artists that want to work in other Asian countries? Why do C-dramas seem to have little restrictions if it comes to explosions, shootings, graphic deaths but so many restrictions if it comes to love? There are more topics on my mind that I cannot properly put into words right now but I am hoping that my understanding of the East Asian entertainment industry can grow through LaineyGossip and The Squawk. Thanks, Lainey, for all the work you are doing and thanks, Hui, for the insightful comments!
Of course I read your comments :) That‘s the kind of information I have been looking for since 2020. There seems to be almost a void if it comes to insightful, reflected information about East Asian entertainment industries. It is especially difficult to understand how the Chinese entertainment market works because there is barely any information available in English. I do not know Mandarin and Google translate doesn‘t give proper results. And the few sites I found in English jump only on the big scandals but often it is the little informations and details in between that are necessary to really understand what‘s going on. I am really hoping that here on The Squawk we can all contribute to bit by bit painting a bigger picture of the various East Asian entertainment markets.
Thank you so much for all that information! I am still digesting the new input :) One of the examples where I noticed that censorship is totally contradictory is the drama “My Dear Guardian“. It is labeled military romance (I started to watch because of the romance part) and has a PG13 rating. But there are SO MANY people dying (not natural deaths, but deaths because of explosions, shootings, accidents, suicides, etc.). And some of the death scenes are super explicit and heartbreaking. On the other hand the romance part is totally tamed - the lead couple barely kisses and of course there is not the slightes sign that they may have sex (the only character where it‘s hinted that he may have intercourse is the villain that is getting executed in the final episode - great message). I know that the regulations that limit the portrayal of sexuality are often justified by the protection of children. But if watching those graphic death scenes is hard to digest for an adult like me, how disturbing must it be for a 13 years old child? This whole we-are-protecting-our-children-from-disturbing-content argumentation does not make much sense if it applies only to sexuality but not to violence. Those are the things my mind keeps circling around and it is good to get more context. Thanks again!
Thank you so much for all the explanations! And I totally get it if you say that sometimes you don‘t understand why you are watching C-dramas and still end up watching them. They have that strange magnetic allure for me, too :)
Ooof. ARMY since the very beginning here. Anytime there’s anything remotely negative about the boys there’s a huge effort to clear the searches on Twitter and spam the emails of HYBE to get things taken down. There could even my measures taken by the fans themselves to dox you. You talking about it to them is you “feeding the trolls” who want to use anything to discredit BTS’ success so they think you’re betraying them. There’s also a narrative on Twitter that the pap was someone aligned with you??? Because there was a headline implying it’s you who shared these photos as some sort of exclusive that got a lot of engagement. I don’t think they understand how your site works lol. The fandom itself has failed the boys in a lot of ways that I’d love for us to discuss in this space. The boys have been a lot more open about sharing their fatigue with the ill communication between them and the fans and it’s sad. Most recently RM. Take care of yourself Jacek!
The feeding the trolls thing is very true because when I first saw this, my first reaction was annoyance, not at JK, not at Lainey, but at the fact that this was definitely going to be used as fan war fodder by other kpop fandoms that will spin anything they can to make members of BTS look bad. And on the eve of new music releasing at that. So while we were really anticipating V’s release we also had to see “the discourse” on our timelines about all this, most of it ridiculous and overblown. SO ANNOYING!
Also there was definitely a narrative going around that these photos were taken by stalkers because while ARMY is knowledgeable, by and large people within it have no idea what Backgrid is or what the celebrity ecosystem is like in LA. It’s a strange grey area that BTS have to navigate in that they’re such big stars, but there’s a big difference in how such stars navigate fame in the west vs Korea. While I fully admit I don’t give a damn when I see pap pics of like Justin Bieber or whoever smoking outside Matsuhisa, I feel differently when it’s JK because I know there’s a whole other layer of bullshit that comes with it. Yes it’s definitely good to challenge the boundaries that kpop idols are saddled with, but it’s also not fun being within it while it’s happening. But Jacek, that really sucks though, I’m sorry about the Scientology emails.
The thing about Korean culture though is it’s filled with hypocrisy. In a country with severe eating disorders, idols are celebrated and praised for their hard work after disclosing the extreme lengths they go to lose weight. When I visited Korea for a month I was shocked at how many people smoked especially since it seems public health campaigns seemed to have made an impact on younger millennials and genz here in North America. It was hard to breathe in the clubs and bars and I don’t even have asthma. Quite literally had my shower water turn black after shampooing my hair. While I understand the concern for other fandoms piling on the guys especially while they’re trying to establish individual sound as the group is in hiatus, they’re adults who can make their own decisions and the outcry is abnormal given the % of the population who smoke. It’s astonishing to me the hoopla made when it comes to idols people admire who are doing something they don’t care for. Kpop fans are some of the only people who get up in arms over smoking. He’s in his mid 20’s and well aware of the risks associated and his celebrity yet still decided to smoke in public. He’s definitely winning the idgaf war. It’s an appetite suppressant, and a tool to manage the pressures and stress that come with the industry. Judgmental fans who fake concern aren’t helping towards a path to cessation. Maybe fans should assess their own behaviors and how it contributes to their idols’ smoking adoption 🤷🏾♀️
Korean American here and yes can confirm Korean men drink hard liquor and smoke a lot. I think JK is definitely leaning into his bad boy era as a form of rebellion with the tattoos, piercings, drinking and smoking. Tattoos in particular are very looked down upon in East Asia. I was amazed that one of my caucasien American friends could not go to a single spa in Japan because of her tattoos.
I’m always so taken aback when you mention that you all get hate mail on the regular, I just can’t imagine feeling such anger/rage about someone I don’t know; much less ever writing hate mail. The contradiction is so baffling, on the one hand the internet has emboldened individuals to spew such vitriol because the screen makes things impersonal so they act so wildly outside of the norm of what’s acceptable but then it’s precisely impersonal opinions that spin people into such a rage! I don’t envy you all but I’m so glad you persevere.
Back to the topic, I went back to re-read your post and initially I thought the issue was you had posted his real time location (specific venue) which I would feel torn about. On the one hand, he is out in public with paps, etc but it somehow feels exploitative to publicize where he is at that exact moment. And a bit dangerous? But simply sharing he’s in LA is harmless though because that place is massive and photos would come out anyway!
Hi Sam...totally valid re: location disclosure. Typically the photo agencies will post sets to their database on quite a delay, aside from, say, Getty or Shutterstock working a red carpet where it's almost in real time. They'll usually make the rounds with the set trying to sell it to publications and then make them available as "all-rounders" after several hours. He would have long since moved on by then, but it's a valid point. And ya, it's LA and a hotspot in this case, like you say.
Appreciate the insight here. I should say that I do believe that, for the most part, the fans are reasonable. But the small faction of those who take offense are super intense and committed - and have the time, lol, to take action. That's when it gets bonkers.
Fan protection can be GREAT - because, yes, I do think media can be irresponsible. And in my past, I have been a part of that. However, there's also a productive entertainment ecosystem that we can participate in where we can take a sighting like this and expand it into a bigger conversation about parasocial relationships and celebrity and what this tells us about our own value system. And the value systems of other cultures.
The Chinese ecosystem is terrifying on so many levels. Even the way they buy traffic on Weibo to boost celebrities/shows...how can anyone ever figure out what's real when there's so much manipulation and manufacturing? There's also all the photoshopping and the face trickery and the CGI and the lighting to make people look a certain way - that's a whole other level of bananas.
This is so interesting. I only came across the word parasocial during the John Mulaney brouhaha, and found the whole concept fascinating, but this looks like a whole other level of fan behaviour. I think the word ‘ownership’ is probably the word that sums up their behaviour.
Hui this is really insightful. It's interesting that we've posted candid photos of BTS before and no one had any issues with them (I think there was one of Jennie from BlackPink and V), but in this case it seems to be more about Jungkook smoking and therefore breaking that perfect boyfriend image that they don't like.
Oh people definitely cared, I think the difference here is that you weren’t the ones to break them while Laineygossip was the first place I saw anything about the recent JK pics.
Let me just add that it's not just Scientology. I'm now a subscriber to about 30 local NBC channels, about that many more local CBS and FOX channels, Healthline, and a host of other useful subscriptions. And they keep coming in! Fun!
Have a great deal of curiosity around what might be in a Scientology newsletter but zero desire to sign up and find out from personal experience 🤣
I mean, it's clever ammo. Let us know if they're any good. LOL
Jacek isn't going to like this... because I really, really, really want to write about K and C-dramas. I watch SO MANY OF THEM. At this point I think I spend more time on Viki than on any other streaming service.
OMG, Lainey, I am having a fangirl meltdown right now - you liked and replied to my comment! I am looking forward to more Asian content (I am sure Jacek is going to support you :) )! I have an iQIYI subscription but now I have to consider a Viki subscription, as well (MY husband may not like this :) ).
ARMY here. Appreciate your post on JK + anything to do with East Asian pop culture and your thoughtful analysis. The hate from fandoms is beyond rational and I just feel bad that you guys have to deal with it. The way I see it, JK is a seasoned public figure. He was with a massive entourage, any of whom could have advised him otherwise. He chose to have a smoke outside within public view. One could argue this was almost intentional, or he just didn't give a hoot either way. Again, that should not translate to you guys getting hate. Grateful for your excellent work always!
Dear Lainey, I appreciate everything you write about East Asian artists and the East Asian entertainment industry (I actually once begged you via e-mail to have an Asian gossip section on LaineyGossip :) ). I discovered K-drama through LaineyGossip and K-drama brought me to C-drama and so on. I am relatively new to East Asian pop culture - it was only in 2020 that I watched my first K-drama - but have been obsessed with it since. But I find it pretty difficult to find deeper analysis of the East Asian entertainment culture and am hoping that The Squawk will be a place to get more insight. I am very happy that your post opened a space for comments like Hui‘s who has been experiencing Asian fan culture for many years and could share her opinions with us. There is so much I want to know. Chinese celebrities seem to navigate in a power triangle between powerful fandoms, state restrictions and threats from people within the entertainment industry - I want to learn more about it! In Thai-dramas things are possible that seem impossible in other countries‘ dramas, but how does it affect Thai artists that want to work in other Asian countries? Why do C-dramas seem to have little restrictions if it comes to explosions, shootings, graphic deaths but so many restrictions if it comes to love? There are more topics on my mind that I cannot properly put into words right now but I am hoping that my understanding of the East Asian entertainment industry can grow through LaineyGossip and The Squawk. Thanks, Lainey, for all the work you are doing and thanks, Hui, for the insightful comments!
Of course I read your comments :) That‘s the kind of information I have been looking for since 2020. There seems to be almost a void if it comes to insightful, reflected information about East Asian entertainment industries. It is especially difficult to understand how the Chinese entertainment market works because there is barely any information available in English. I do not know Mandarin and Google translate doesn‘t give proper results. And the few sites I found in English jump only on the big scandals but often it is the little informations and details in between that are necessary to really understand what‘s going on. I am really hoping that here on The Squawk we can all contribute to bit by bit painting a bigger picture of the various East Asian entertainment markets.
Thank you so much for all that information! I am still digesting the new input :) One of the examples where I noticed that censorship is totally contradictory is the drama “My Dear Guardian“. It is labeled military romance (I started to watch because of the romance part) and has a PG13 rating. But there are SO MANY people dying (not natural deaths, but deaths because of explosions, shootings, accidents, suicides, etc.). And some of the death scenes are super explicit and heartbreaking. On the other hand the romance part is totally tamed - the lead couple barely kisses and of course there is not the slightes sign that they may have sex (the only character where it‘s hinted that he may have intercourse is the villain that is getting executed in the final episode - great message). I know that the regulations that limit the portrayal of sexuality are often justified by the protection of children. But if watching those graphic death scenes is hard to digest for an adult like me, how disturbing must it be for a 13 years old child? This whole we-are-protecting-our-children-from-disturbing-content argumentation does not make much sense if it applies only to sexuality but not to violence. Those are the things my mind keeps circling around and it is good to get more context. Thanks again!
Thank you so much for all the explanations! And I totally get it if you say that sometimes you don‘t understand why you are watching C-dramas and still end up watching them. They have that strange magnetic allure for me, too :)
Really enjoying all the unique perspectives here. Thanks Hui, Lainey and everyone else.
Ooof. ARMY since the very beginning here. Anytime there’s anything remotely negative about the boys there’s a huge effort to clear the searches on Twitter and spam the emails of HYBE to get things taken down. There could even my measures taken by the fans themselves to dox you. You talking about it to them is you “feeding the trolls” who want to use anything to discredit BTS’ success so they think you’re betraying them. There’s also a narrative on Twitter that the pap was someone aligned with you??? Because there was a headline implying it’s you who shared these photos as some sort of exclusive that got a lot of engagement. I don’t think they understand how your site works lol. The fandom itself has failed the boys in a lot of ways that I’d love for us to discuss in this space. The boys have been a lot more open about sharing their fatigue with the ill communication between them and the fans and it’s sad. Most recently RM. Take care of yourself Jacek!
The feeding the trolls thing is very true because when I first saw this, my first reaction was annoyance, not at JK, not at Lainey, but at the fact that this was definitely going to be used as fan war fodder by other kpop fandoms that will spin anything they can to make members of BTS look bad. And on the eve of new music releasing at that. So while we were really anticipating V’s release we also had to see “the discourse” on our timelines about all this, most of it ridiculous and overblown. SO ANNOYING!
Also there was definitely a narrative going around that these photos were taken by stalkers because while ARMY is knowledgeable, by and large people within it have no idea what Backgrid is or what the celebrity ecosystem is like in LA. It’s a strange grey area that BTS have to navigate in that they’re such big stars, but there’s a big difference in how such stars navigate fame in the west vs Korea. While I fully admit I don’t give a damn when I see pap pics of like Justin Bieber or whoever smoking outside Matsuhisa, I feel differently when it’s JK because I know there’s a whole other layer of bullshit that comes with it. Yes it’s definitely good to challenge the boundaries that kpop idols are saddled with, but it’s also not fun being within it while it’s happening. But Jacek, that really sucks though, I’m sorry about the Scientology emails.
The thing about Korean culture though is it’s filled with hypocrisy. In a country with severe eating disorders, idols are celebrated and praised for their hard work after disclosing the extreme lengths they go to lose weight. When I visited Korea for a month I was shocked at how many people smoked especially since it seems public health campaigns seemed to have made an impact on younger millennials and genz here in North America. It was hard to breathe in the clubs and bars and I don’t even have asthma. Quite literally had my shower water turn black after shampooing my hair. While I understand the concern for other fandoms piling on the guys especially while they’re trying to establish individual sound as the group is in hiatus, they’re adults who can make their own decisions and the outcry is abnormal given the % of the population who smoke. It’s astonishing to me the hoopla made when it comes to idols people admire who are doing something they don’t care for. Kpop fans are some of the only people who get up in arms over smoking. He’s in his mid 20’s and well aware of the risks associated and his celebrity yet still decided to smoke in public. He’s definitely winning the idgaf war. It’s an appetite suppressant, and a tool to manage the pressures and stress that come with the industry. Judgmental fans who fake concern aren’t helping towards a path to cessation. Maybe fans should assess their own behaviors and how it contributes to their idols’ smoking adoption 🤷🏾♀️
Korean American here and yes can confirm Korean men drink hard liquor and smoke a lot. I think JK is definitely leaning into his bad boy era as a form of rebellion with the tattoos, piercings, drinking and smoking. Tattoos in particular are very looked down upon in East Asia. I was amazed that one of my caucasien American friends could not go to a single spa in Japan because of her tattoos.
I’m always so taken aback when you mention that you all get hate mail on the regular, I just can’t imagine feeling such anger/rage about someone I don’t know; much less ever writing hate mail. The contradiction is so baffling, on the one hand the internet has emboldened individuals to spew such vitriol because the screen makes things impersonal so they act so wildly outside of the norm of what’s acceptable but then it’s precisely impersonal opinions that spin people into such a rage! I don’t envy you all but I’m so glad you persevere.
Back to the topic, I went back to re-read your post and initially I thought the issue was you had posted his real time location (specific venue) which I would feel torn about. On the one hand, he is out in public with paps, etc but it somehow feels exploitative to publicize where he is at that exact moment. And a bit dangerous? But simply sharing he’s in LA is harmless though because that place is massive and photos would come out anyway!
Hi Sam...totally valid re: location disclosure. Typically the photo agencies will post sets to their database on quite a delay, aside from, say, Getty or Shutterstock working a red carpet where it's almost in real time. They'll usually make the rounds with the set trying to sell it to publications and then make them available as "all-rounders" after several hours. He would have long since moved on by then, but it's a valid point. And ya, it's LA and a hotspot in this case, like you say.
Omg people are too much invested in those celebrities! 🙄
Appreciate the insight here. I should say that I do believe that, for the most part, the fans are reasonable. But the small faction of those who take offense are super intense and committed - and have the time, lol, to take action. That's when it gets bonkers.
Fan protection can be GREAT - because, yes, I do think media can be irresponsible. And in my past, I have been a part of that. However, there's also a productive entertainment ecosystem that we can participate in where we can take a sighting like this and expand it into a bigger conversation about parasocial relationships and celebrity and what this tells us about our own value system. And the value systems of other cultures.
The Chinese ecosystem is terrifying on so many levels. Even the way they buy traffic on Weibo to boost celebrities/shows...how can anyone ever figure out what's real when there's so much manipulation and manufacturing? There's also all the photoshopping and the face trickery and the CGI and the lighting to make people look a certain way - that's a whole other level of bananas.
This is so interesting. I only came across the word parasocial during the John Mulaney brouhaha, and found the whole concept fascinating, but this looks like a whole other level of fan behaviour. I think the word ‘ownership’ is probably the word that sums up their behaviour.
Very interesting!
Fascinating. I appreciate this context!
Hui this is really insightful. It's interesting that we've posted candid photos of BTS before and no one had any issues with them (I think there was one of Jennie from BlackPink and V), but in this case it seems to be more about Jungkook smoking and therefore breaking that perfect boyfriend image that they don't like.
Oh people definitely cared, I think the difference here is that you weren’t the ones to break them while Laineygossip was the first place I saw anything about the recent JK pics.